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How can we make a good forum?
  • It feels funny to get all immediately self-referential like this but I think it's a fine time to start discussing how exactly we can make Turrbull a good forum going forward. We might as well have an open discussion about it. Anyway, I think forum theory is really interesting.

    What makes good communities work?

    Tell me what you think.

    I've written a couple of things recently about this (hereand here) and I wrote a little bit about it last year too.

    Here are a few things I have in mind as Turrbull grows:

    1. Keeping the content quality high is my number one priority. It's easy now, you're all pretty awesome posters. Is it possible to do this as the forum grows? Some advice has basically said "keep it small", the line of thought being that it is strictly impossible to keep a forum 'good' once it reaches a certain size. I'm not going to place an arbitrary population limit on the place but I am going to be very hands on in the way I manage the community. I have no problem being called a nazi mod as long as it keeps things good around here and as long as the majority of the community understands why actions are taken.

    Memes are generally looked down upon, especially if they're the only thing in your post. One important way to keep content quality high is to be a little demanding of everyone who posts (including myself) by requiring effort be put in. The requirement means good content means we all get rewarded. I can't stress how important it is to the success of a forum that effort will be rewarded.

    It goes without saying but insults and flames won't be tolerated if they become unreasonable. That's a line I'll have to define more clearly as things progress.

    So there's no science to keeping it the quality high but active members and mods can go a long way.

    2. I'd like to keep the layout pretty simple. I have considered adding small things here or there (there's a lot of empty real estate particularly on the right side of the page) but the overall goal is to keep things clear and simple. Discussions should be the focus and they should be easy to get to.

    I could add a tagging feature to posts. You tag your post and then the popular tags are listed on the right side. I'll probably take it for a test run soon and see how we all like it. Stuff like that is simple but has the potential to make it easier to find discussions you like.




    What are some examples of good communities that you guys know? What makes them good? Any forum do's or don'ts you think we ought to be mindful of? I'd love to hear specific examples of the good and bad in existing forums as well as ideas you might have about what could make forums great. Let's hear what you have to say.
    Post edited by chobopeon at 2012-06-26 01:21:16
  • I think it's important to note that having good communities can really make a difference in esports. I know that a few communities I've been a part of over the last 10 years (NoHunters, Team Liquid, etc) have made big differences in my path in esports. GotFrag's shitty forums (and the CS community in general) drove me away from that game even though I loved it. TL kept me in BW through many years that I otherwise might've drifted away.

    A good forum can foster growth in so many important ways.
    Post edited by chobopeon at 2012-06-25 19:40:37
  • The community makes the forum. The forum does not make the community.

    That said, what do YOU want this to become? This is yours after all.

    Personally, I like the idea of exclusivity and an invite only style forum would be neat.

    I loved wcreplays.com as a forum. Nothing made it special, it was just the community that made it awesome. Over the years as the "trolls" began to surface, it became a pain.

    So long as there is no trolling and flat out rage debates, I'm a happy camper.
  • Sorry for the gifs. I'll use them minimally from now on. -_-

    I was part of a Call of Duty forum called CODsource/TheTZ. It was basically the CAL COD forums just in a different domain. What made it a really bad forum, in my opinion, was that the trolls got the best of everybody. Eventually, the forum made for the worst when it was just had a lot negativity in regards to posters and content that was being posted. I've lurked in ESEA forums whenever I have Premium. Even there, it's hard to find really good conversations with over members without other members having at it at each other. Same goes with HLTV, lurked there and the forums was downright atrocious. I don't know what it is with FPS oriented forums but there is far too many Debbie Downers, I believe that is the correct phrase.

    I think what makes a good forum survive is that you respect other members for their opinions and you don't attack them for what they said. Otherwise, if you do attack them it loses the idea of speaking out your opinions and just turns into Reddit. Overall, a forum is to facilitate discussions not attack each other. Trolling should also be kept to a minimal, I would /ban them if I came across them or /tempban.

    Respect is key for growth because it makes you not look like fools. If I looked like a fool recently, I'm sorry.

    [EDITED: Too much space in the bottom]
    Post edited by hubwub at 2012-06-25 19:53:25
  • @hubwub no need at all to apologize for the meme. it's not like it was a terrible post, it just reminded me that I ought to make clear that memes in general are bad for a forum.

    Your points about respect are key. Is it possible to keep a high level of respect as things grow? I think so. It's tough though
  • I've nothing to add, really, to what everyone else is saying - just wanted to say that the thing about a simple layout is something I feel is overlooked too often when someone is creating a new forum, and that I agree whole-heartedly with you when you say you want to keep it simple. Kinda, sorta, almost reminds me of Usenet.
  • Forums are bad and you should feel bad.

    Seriously though....are there any good forums? They all degenerate into either one big circle jerk(reddit), or anarchy(gotfrag) and sometimes, both(TL).

    EDIT: The more i think about it, the only good forum i've ever been too has been 4chan's /v/, /sp/, /mu/ and /tv/ - and those are only because people can talk without having to worry about being attacked later on for their opinions(due to the anonymous posting). AND EVEN THEY BECOME HIVEMIND.
    Post edited by var1ables at 2012-06-25 21:48:03
  • I'm pretty sure we're on the wrong track when we start comparing a community to /v/....

    I'm not sure what you mean by quality. I see a lot of red lines around here where people have gone back and edited their posts, which is good, but without a common definition of "quality", I'm not sure I understand how to control that.

    I agree that respect is big, and I'd even mark that as part of quality. When I was a child, I did child-like things, but I am no longer a child- so I've left those communities.

    Meme's are a mix batch... so you can't label them one way or another. On one hand, they're great at proving a point-simple and visually appealing, but on the other they can be a circle jerk list of inside jokes and can definitely de-rail conversations.

    There are degrees earned on this topic, so it's no simple matter.
  • Even in rare cases where individual memes are good or funny, they'll just encourage others and inevitably bring in shitty memes. They're the epitome of no effort content so even the good ones are a net negative. In my experience anyway, I don't think a forum can be very good if memes are normal.

    I'm not home but I'll try to explain what I mean by quality when I am.
    Post edited by chobopeon at 2012-06-26 22:07:28
  • I would agree with that. Facebook etc... has gone DOWNHILL with them. Not just Memes, but media in general. It's like the ass of powerpoint, 2.0. Minimal effort, minimal quality.
  • As long as we're not obsessing about creating memes.

    Because that shit is the devil.
  • Don't create em, don't use em, don't bring that junk in this house. Reeeeeeeeeeejected. No but really, they're lame as shit. Not here :)
  • chobopeon said:

    Don't create em, don't use em, don't bring that junk in this house. Reeeeeeeeeeejected. No but really, they're lame as shit. Not here :)


    I require the use of OVER 9000. Other than that, can't say I'll actively gather memes for posts. :P
  • I always thought sticking to text-only was a first good step, and by text-only I don't mean reddit's "self posts" where half the time the post contains nothing but a link. With text-only, people who actually want to participate (and not sound like idiots) must take the time and read what's being posted and usually that ends up in higher quality discussions. A meme, a screenshot of a tweet or a facebook will rarely lead to good discussions because there isn't enough "meat" to discuss in the first place. I think that's a big problem online though, and I have to admit I'm a victim of it, everything is just so quick and easily accessible nowadays that the average internet user has a very small attention span.

    As mentionned by @chobopeon in the original post, I think the layout is really important. @var1ables mentionned 4-chan's /v/ and although I can't agree the content is usually worth it (it happens though) I love the layout of it. The text-only boards also have the perfect layout to display long discussions. If I could make one criticism to the current layout of turrbull, it would be the space between the OP and the first reply isn't clear enough. I, for one, would get rid of the share buttons as I doubt anyone will use them (how hard is it to copy/paste the URL and post it on Twitter yourself? Do you really need a button for that?) and there are a lot of privacy issues related to those (FB getting feedbacks from the users visiting this site, for instance). I don't use FB/Twitter so that might not be a popular opinion though. What I'd do to quickly fix the issue I mentionned would be to change the background (white) of the "sharing" section to the grey background of the main site. I think having some spacing between replies would make it look better as well. I should mention that I am a console kind of guy and have absolutely no design experience so take this entire advice with a grain of salt!

    Obviously the biggest factor in a community is the people. Big numbers are good because they often lead to good things (see reddit) but the more people you have the higher the chances of having bad seeds. On the other hand, having a smaller user base will most certainly lead to better content but might quickly become boring if the same people contribute over and over again without much interaction. This leads me to give my opinion on moderation and moderators. I've seen a lot of angry mobs on reddit crying to censorship when a moderator deletes something s/he believes isn't contributing to the community and in most cases I have to side with the moderators (although I'll stop talking about reddit as I think it's a pretty bad community and the only advantages it has is the huge pool of members which comes in handy once in a while). I think moderators should delete everything that isn't pushing the community forwards while being impartial to opinions.

    Lastly, I think a good community should have a fairly small scope when it comes to the subjects discussed by its members. I think TL has lasted for so long and is so popular because, no matter what was happening in the gaming world, they stuck with starcraft. There were a few years between BW and SC2 where the Starcraft franchise was nowhere near as popular as it is now and I think it would of been tempting for a community like TL to just say "screw it" and start branching out in a bunch of different games. Sure the forums have sections for DotA and Diablo and whatnot but the main focus was always Starcraft.


    EDIT: Oh and IRC. An IRC channel is, in my opinion, very important to a good community. It's a good way to get all the out-of-topic stuff out of the way!

    Well I think that's it. I feel like I rephrased some ideas already posted but oh well!
    Post edited by Turing at 2012-06-26 22:42:37
  • One thing I like in the few Something Awful forums I visit is the consistency in enforcing grammar and spelling issues. Full sentences, punctuation, focus on being legible and mature instead of lol typng liek dis cuz u can mang.

    Not to say that you always need to follow the rules, deviation from standards can help making a point.
    Post edited by AlphaFerg at 2012-06-26 22:46:49
  • I think these are all good points. I'm at the girlfriend's so I'll save long replies for later but on the topic of off-topic stuff, I think an [Open Thread] can handle that. If we wanted, I could make this auto-update quickly becoming essentially a chat room in that way. The main reason I haven't is because of potential load problems to the server. I might give it a try and see how it's handled.

    The share stuff I'm not sure about yet, they might stay or go. However, most members here do use Twitter a lot. It's a big deal in the esports community at large.
  • AlphaFerg said:

    One thing I like in the few Something Awful forums I visit is the consistency in enforcing grammar and spelling issues. Full sentences, punctuation, focus on being legible and mature instead of lol typng liek dis cuz u can mang.

    Not to say that you always need to follow the rules, deviation from standards can help making a point.



    It's funny, I'm a paid member of SA but barely know anything about it. I want to go around and browse some successful forums to see how it's done.

    Yeah, I think enforcing this sort of thing is great. It makes understanding one another 10x easier.
  • Your forum design is lacking more than a little something. I'm not sure of the software, but you need to first of all get the text not occupying ~30% of the screen.

    As well a white+black colour scheme, kills more lives than it saves. A dark background would be a good choice.
  • It's about the people. Not to circle jerk but so far the quality of contributors here, myself excluded, is very high.
  • Well, I am going to re-iterate most peoples thoughts. It seems every time I am available to actually write something with substance and meaning fams or someone else has already beat me to the punch. Excuse me if some of this has been regurgitated. I'll try to keep the paragraphs down and write concisely as possible.

    1. Simple layout – text based.
    High level discussion seems to be the focus. That being said, the discussion is what ‘makes’ the website, not the actual graphics, design, or any other unnecessary garbage. I love the layout of the website right now. However, I do think the postings should be extended to provide better readability.

    2. Invite Only. Perhaps make people apply to get in? Perhaps use a pay-to-post model like SomethingAwful or FOHGuild.org

    3. No images unless statistical graphs or use only images that serve an important aspect of the discussion.
  • 1. Design

    Right now, I'm using this theme for vanilla forums. I'm not confident enough in my skills to go in there and customize it but if people want to look at it or look at alternatives, I'd be happy to consider changes. I agree it'd be nice if the discussion was bigger. Color scheme I don't know but I'd experiment with a darker set.

    2. Invite

    As much as I want to keep the quality high, easy access seems important to me. When people see a discussion here and want to contribute because they have something to say, I like that they're able to just register and go. As things progress and grow, maybe a system like you mention will be better. At such a small stage, it seems like it'd only stifle conversation.

    3. Images

    I will limit images (already deleted a meme!) but I think images can serve a great purpose. Screen shots are great for gaming discussion.
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